Deep Dive: Kelp Forest Guardians: How Sea Otters Shape the Marine Ecosystem with Linda Nichol

The History and Ecosystem Impact of Sea Otters on Vancouver Island

The podcast episode explores the history and ecological impact of sea otters on the west coast of Canada, particularly near Vancouver Island. Hosted by David Evans of the Aquatic Biosphere Project, the episode features Linda Nichol from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans who discusses the reintroduction of sea otters from Alaska after they were lost from the region. The conversation covers the ecological role of sea otters, including their effect on kelp forests through the control of sea urchins, and the broader ecosystem changes resulting from their return. The challenges of coexistence with local fisheries and Indigenous communities are addressed, along with the overall benefits to marine biodiversity, ecotourism, and carbon sequestration. The episode also discusses broader topics related to marine conservation and ocean noise pollution affecting cetaceans, emphasizing the complex interactions within marine ecosystems.

Sea Otters:
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00:00 Introduction to Sea Otters
00:40 Reintroduction Efforts and Challenges
01:44 Podcast Introduction and Guest Introduction
03:25 History of Sea Otters on the West Coast
11:22 Ecological Role of Sea Otters
21:48 Impact on Local Communities and Fisheries
29:26 Effects of Human Activity and Conservation Efforts
43:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Chapters

• 0:40 Reintroduction Efforts and Challenges
• 3:25 History of Sea Otters on the West Coast
• 11:22 Ecological Role of Sea Otters
• 21:48 Impact on Local Communities and Fisheries
• 29:26 Effects of Human Activity and Conservation Efforts

Transcript

Dave Evans: 0:19

Sea otters are one of the most iconic species off of the west coast of North America. They're always found in kelp forests, tied up with kelp, sleeping up on top of the surface, and then diving down to get their food from the bottom. We actually lost sea otters off the coast of Vancouver Island in Canada's west coast. We had to reintroduce them from Alaska. And today, we're talking with Linda Nickel from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans all about the reintroduction, what's currently happening, and why they can have problems with fisheries So, sit back and relax and get ready to learn a little bit more about sea otters and what is happening to them right now in Canada.

1:00

Water Fox Bunny Ji Nipi Earth Water Water Dragon Drinking Women Two. Robert, Mary, he Y. Water we doing and how can we do better? Your one stop shop for everything water related. From discussing water, its use, and the organisms that depend on it. For all the global issues that you really never knew all had to do with water. I'm your host David Evans from the Aquatic Biosphere Project, and I just want to ask you something. What are we doing, and how can we do better?=So welcome to another deep dive episode of the What Are We Doing podcast. So today I'm so excited to learn all about sea otters, Vancouver Island, and talk with one experts in the field. I'm speaking with Linda Nickel today. Linda, do you mind just introducing yourself? And can you tell us a little bit about what you do? Yes, my name is Linda Nichol and I'm a research biologist at the Pacific Biological Station in Nanaimo. So I work for Fisheries and Oceans Canada and our focus in our group is around conservation. So it's research that is in support of conservation. So often, if we want to conserve species, we need to understand what, their needs are in terms of habitat or food, or what are the threats to them from human activities. And if we can understand these things. And then we have a better chance of making management decisions to support the recovery. Awesome. So many Canadians, we don't live near the ocean and I can just see out your window that it looks like you're in a beautiful place and wow, definitely jealous whether I have snow still outside of my window here. But to get us started With your focus being on sea otters and other marine mammals can you tell us a little bit about the history of sea otters off the west coast of Canada? Yeah, well, I, was thinking about that question. I mean, it's, it can be broad or it can be narrow. How far back do we go? I'll sort of start in the middle and then I'll jump around a little bit. So, we often think about... The sea otter history is marked by the beginning of the maritime fur trade, which was in the mid 1700s. And we think about how many otters were there before that fur trade. And so Essentially, what is thought is that prior to the mid 1700s, there was probably it's a very crude estimate, but 150, 000 sea otters that ranged along coastal areas from northern Japan all the way around the tops of northern Russia, the Commander and Curl Islands, the Aleutian Islands, down the Alaskan coast, B. C., What is Washington, Oregon, California, and right to northern Mexico. that is the full range of this species. The sea otter, well, it's, nearest ancestor first emerged in the North Pacific period about 2 million years ago. And so they've been here for a long time nearshore habitat. And we know that it's certain that the indigenous peoples who've lived along these coastal areas have hunted sea otters for their pelts and traded their pelts. Prior to the fur trade, so there was a existence of humans and these existence of otters throughout these areas. So then along came first the Russians in the Bering and Commander Islands, and in the early 1700s, 1740, and they found sea otters and began to hunt them. And then later on, famous trip of Captain Cook, he arrived on Nook Island in 1778. So quite a long time ago, but he sailed off in a ship, a ship that probably wasn't as big as we imagined. And his his crew traded with the Mowachat people who lived at Yukon, at their village, because that's where they were. He traded for a relatively small number of pelts, these beautiful, luxurious pelts. And off they went. And they sailed away across the Pacific to China, to Macau, where they sold them for this extraordinary sum of money. They couldn't believe how much they could get for these. And so that was the beginning of this trade. And so following that, trading vessels, European and American trading vessels, would come to the coast annually every year. And they'd spend months on the coast trading with the Indigenous people to acquire these pelts from them. That the Indigenous people would have been hunting, presumably through the winter in anticipation of their arrival. And so this went on for quite a while, but not as long as you might think. And so by the mid 1800s, so less than a hundred years later, this trade was over. Wow. And the reason it was over was because it wasn't really worth the traders coming to the coast anymore because they weren't going to be getting very many sea otter pelts. So that sort of was the end of that fur trade. They were still hunted, but there wasn't a big trade. And in jumping ahead to 1911, which is another date when there was a important fur seal treaty that was signed that had just a little bit to do with otters. Otters aren't fur seals. But at that time, it's recorded that there were probably only 1, 000 to 2, 000 otters left. In the world so left in the Pacific. So we've gone from hundreds of thousands to 1000 to 2000 animals and they were scattered in 13 little remnant colonies. It's super remote places, like in the Aleutian Islands. One little one at the north end of Haida Gwaii, and one in California, and one in Mexico. At any rate, these colonies numbered 10 to 100 animals, so really small. And they continued to be hunted, so that the one in Haida Gwaii, this little tiny one that was known to have been there in 1911, was pretty much gone by 1920. So that was the end of sea otters in B. C., and ironically or not sea otters were first protected in British Columbia by what was then the B. C. Wildlife Act, and it came into effect in 1931. but ironically, The last known sea otter that had been killed, there's a couple of records, one is 1929 and one is 1931, so we didn't really get a chance to protect the sea otters in BC before they were gone. So we consider them, after that, to be gone, and In terms of whatever role they played in the ecosystem on the BC coast, they've really been gone since the mid 1800s in terms of having their ecological role, which we can talk about next. So that was it, all quiet on the coast, no sea otters, until the 1960s. So now we jump ahead 30 years from that BC Wildlife Act, or 50 years from that First Seal Treaty, and well over 100 years. From the end of the fur trade and what happened was the Americans were doing nuclear testing at Amchitka in the Aleutian Islands, and it was going to affect wildlife, including sea otters. So there was sort of a catalyzed, This idea with American biologists to move some of the otters out of that area, Amchitka, and where could they be relocated? And with the idea of reintroducing them to places where they had not recovered yet. Remember, there was just those tiny colonies. So, the Canadian biologists were approached, and it was deemed a good idea. And so as part of that reintroduction, animals were reintroduced to Checklissett Bay on the west coast of Vancouver Island, one spot. There were three reintroduction efforts. for a total of 89 animals. and many less than half of those eventually survived. And there were also reintroductions in Washington and one in Oregon that didn't work. And so that was the start of our current sea otter population as best we know. And those sea otters, The ones that survived, reproduced, and we now, we now, as of today our best, our most recent population estimate, we have just under We have probably at least 8, 000 sea otters on the BC coast. And so largely from that, as much as we know from that reintroduction. And the population still has habitat to expand into. And we also know that the whole, so they haven't occupied their full range in the North Pacific. There's still places where they don't exist. But the population is thought to be something like 125, 000 animals. throughout the range although there have been some major declines in the Aleutian Islands. So that is the history of sea otters on the west coast of Vancouver Island and the North Pacific. Wow. Yeah, you did the, you did the entire ring there. That's wonderful. Yeah, yeah, it's such an interesting story in history of not only how the first contact with Captain Cook and how that really Begot the entire situation and has led to where we are today and this reintroduction effort and It's astounding to me of hearing even if 89 animals survived that to grow to 8, 000 is incredible and with I mean, there's other examples from the biology world of really assisted repopulation of efforts but basically it's, I mean, my interpretation of what you said is just letting these animals free and letting them to their own devices, and this happened naturally, and so That's quite different than maternal penning of, caribou or, other such, such types of reintroduction efforts. So that's really, interesting to hear. You alluded as well to the role of sea otters and how they play in the aquatic ecosystem. So how has. What role do they fill, and how has their reintroduction changed the waters off of Vancouver Island from them not being present for so long? Well, so, there's a few things pretty unique about sea otters that plays into this part of the story. Sea otters are, they're a mustelid, so they're an otter, and they're the only one that lives in the marine environment. They live their entire lives. They've, evolved to occupy that near shore niche along the coast. They, stay in the ocean throughout their lives. They never come ashore but they don't have a blubber layer. So all other marine mammals have a nice thick blubber layer which keeps them warm like a wetsuit. So these guys don't have that. So what they've evolved is this incredibly dense fur that has these sort of waterproofing outer hairs and then this very dense under fur. Where air is captured and that air layer keeps them warm and they have to keep that fur super clean. But that's the luxurious fur that got them in trouble in the first place. But it's what keeps them warm. But the other piece of what keeps these relatively small animals warm is having a very high metabolic rate. That means your internal furnace. So it's what keeps you warm. We have a metabolism that generates heat and that's how we maintain our body temperature. So they have a very high metabolic rate. They consume, so they need to, they're generating a lot of heat and they're consuming their calories to produce that heat. And what that means is that they need to eat a lot. So, a sea otter has a metabolism that's over twice that of a mammal of a comparable size on land. And it means that they need to eat 20 30 percent of their body weight in food every day. So you could just imagine, you could do the math for yourself. Hmm, how many sandwiches would that be? That would be a lot of sandwiches, yeah. A lot of sandwiches. So, they have to eat a lot. And they have to eat a lot to maintain their body heat and to survive. And to carry on and reproduce. And a couple of other things that are interesting about them is, other things like river otters, den on land, and so the, female river otter has a, little litter of kits. She can have a whole bunch of them and they're kept safely in their den and she can take them in and out. But because a sea otter is at sea all the time, the pup is born quite large and it can only be one, because a female can only handle one pup at a time, so the female invests enormous amount of energy into the care and rearing of these single pups. which she cares for six to eight months before they're weaned. So they're really good moms as well. So here you have these animals. They eat a ton of food, and that causes huge ecosystem effects. So, sea otters feed mostly on invertebrates, so shellfish, so we're talking about things like sea urchins, and clams, and crabs those are some of the common ones. And they get those muscles, and they get those things by diving to the seafloor. Or to rocky ledges, and they pry these things off with their really strong forelimbs and they carry them to the surface and then they use their very dexterous paws and their really powerful jaws to pry and crush these things and open them up and eat the insides. So there they are diving up and down doing this. And they're eating a lot of invertebrates, these shellfish. So you might imagine that eating a lot of invertebrates could have a real effect on an ecosystem. So, let's go back to the mid 1880s, sea otters were essentially removed from this role in the ecosystem. So all these invertebrates are sitting around with no predator. Woo! There's nobody eating me. I'm a sea urchin. There's nobody eating me. So the sea urchins and the abalone and all these species were released from their main predator. And these animals are herbivores, they're grazers, like an ungulate, like a cow, right? They graze on kelp, they eat kelp. And because they didn't have any predators, they were grazing and grazing and they were keeping the kelp from growing. So the kelp forests would have disappeared. You would have only had these kelp forests as a fringe right near the shore. Where it was actually not great habitat for some of the invertebrates. So these kelp forests were small, and you'd have these areas that were carpeted with invertebrates. So they, we, we often talk about sea urchin barren, so areas that are just carpeted, sea urchins. So that's, this is the classic story of sea otter effects in rocky habitat. So the sea otter is reintroduced, comes back, and as the population recovers in an area, these animals, they stay in one area, they don't move, and they start eating these invertebrates, they begin to reduce their numbers. And these urchins and things are going, oh, my predator's back. And so as their numbers are reduced, This allows the kelp forest to grow so that's one of the effects we see, is increasing sizes of kelp forests because their invertebrate, these grazing invertebrates are reduced in number and size. So in areas where sea otters have been occupying for quite a while, these kelp beds can be really big. In fact, 19 times bigger than in areas. And they extend further into the deep. They can be four times deeper. So much, much bigger kelp forests. And why do these matter? Well, there's a whole bunch of things that are kind of cool about kelp forests. One for us to think about is carbon sequestration. So that's a nice thing for us. But from another ecological perspective, they provide really important habitat for rockfish and other types of juvenile schooling fish that live in these kelp forests. So you have a lot of fish. The kelp forest also helps to entrain or keep shellfish larvae when they're, spawned for disappearing off into the ocean and spreading far and wide into all the wrong habitats. So when a shellfish spawns, their larvae are more likely to settle in good habitat because they're not washed away. They've got this kelp forest to kind of restrain the currents and the water. Yeah, the other thing that's happening is those urchins and abalone, for example, that used to go around grazing all the kelp. Well, they've reverted to their other existence, which is to live in crevices. So they're there, they're not as in high densities, but they're living in crevices and they're feeding on what we call the detritus, bits of kelp that are raining down. So they just become detritus feeders, they sit there and feed like that. So you have a system in these rocky habitats where you have fewer of these large invertebrates, much fewer, but a greater diversity of organisms. And in many ways, a more productive system where the whole system is being fed from this carbon from the kelp forest. And also the kelp forest help to buffer shorelines from storm and erosion, which may become important with more climate change. So that's kind of this classic story with this trophic cascade of what happens in what we call rocky habitat, but sea otters also eat things like clams and soft sediment habitat. And so there are also things going on in soft sediment habitats, some of which is just beginning to be looked at. So we have what are called on this coast, eelgrass beds, which is a type of grass. And otters will dig in these eelgrass beds, often for clams to feed on. And it turns out, there's a recent study, it's pretty cool, that shows that by doing this, by disturbing the eelgrass, They're actually disrupting the eelgrass so that it causes them to reproduce more, they have two types of reproduction, sexual reproduction, and this increases the genetic diversity of the eelgrass bed itself, which helps To improve resilience in the very cool. Yeah, so there's all these interesting trophic cascades and feedbacks from sea otter foraging and what I'm describing to you is just sort of a thumbnail sketch of a whole suite of really interesting studies that have been done over the last 20, 30, probably 40 years because the return of the sea otter has allowed for this incredible opportunity. to look at the recovery of a species and the reconnection of all these interactions between species that existed when the otter was there. And it's been made possible by the removal of otters and then the reintroduction. And so it's made us realize how important all these interactions are. So it's not just the otter itself, but it's all the things that it creates. So that's pretty interesting. That's absolutely interesting. And, yeah, it just reminds me of, like, the trophic cascades of the really famous example of wolves in Yellowstone. And how that's changed that ecosystem entirely. And, it reminds me of beavers changing, like, as an ecosystem engineer and changing those systems as well. And. Yeah. I mean, the sea otters are just absolutely adorable as well. And I think it's, hard to argue that as well.

Dave Evans: 20:23

I'm so excited to thank today's sponsor, the Canadian Ocean Literacy Coalition, as we were awarded the Blue Creators Grant. We're so thankful to the Canadian Ocean Literacy Coalition for helping to continue this podcast. The Canadian Ocean Literacy Coalition is empowering Canadians to better understand, value, and care for the ocean. They launched in 2018 and is a nationally and internationally recognized catalyst and center for ocean literacy, collaboration, research, and innovation. They convene and lead collaborative action across regions, sectors, and scales, and their work focuses on education and engagement, research and impact, leadership, and advocacy. We're so excited to be part of that group. We're so excited to be releasing this as part of Ocean Week Canada, a public celebration of the ocean from coast to coast to coast. Ocean Week Canada is an annual national celebration of ocean events, learning, and engagement held during the week of World Ocean Day, June 8th. Through these events and learning activities, we recognize the important role the ocean plays in our everyday lives. And how local waterways connect us all with the ocean, help us raise public awareness and celebrate this connection to coastal areas, the ocean and watersheds in Canada. Together, we can inspire action to ensure a healthy ocean for future generations. Be sure to keep your eyes peeled for any events happening in your vicinity. We're so grateful for your generous support. Now, back to our episode.

21:47

So. I know this has been as many coastal communities around there, how have they been affected by this reintroduction? I'm thinking of local Indigenous communities along the coast and their access to traditional foods. Well, that is definitely a contentious issue for sure. And it's a topic of a great deal of discussion and investigation. One thing that we can think about is, Before the advent of scuba, a lot of those invertebrates that are now part of dive fisheries would not probably have been very accessible to humans. So people were living along the coast. They were living in villages and summer camps, various places where they would move to harvest different things. They were living along the coast. We might think about it as the intertidal, which refers to the part of the seashore that extends from the very highest high water, when you get a big high tide, to the very lowest low part. We call that the intertidal. and that zone, and even maybe a little bit into where it's shallow would have been the domain of humans. That's where humans would have been harvesting for sure. And in particular, they would have been harvesting clams, which would have been a really important food, because it's predictable and it's there. When you get into the deeper water, that domain, in terms of these shellfish, would have been more the domain of Sea otters, because humans wouldn't have had as much access to them. So in the deeper water, humans would have fished. Sea otters don't eat fish to any extent, and they would have been probably trapping for crabs, and that might have been something that sea otters would have been eating as well, but really it's that domain along the shore. And so probably historically. People excluded animals from those areas. They were deterred by various means from, that coastal area, and it's now known that in many parts of the coast human settlements were creating what are called clam gardens. So they would actively terrace the shoreline, so raise up the shoreline to enhance it for productivity of clams. Cool. So they would create these clam gardens and we don't know if the clam garden was a response to sea otter predation because when you terrace the beach and you make it higher like that it's and it's too shallow, otter to forage, so you're effectively excluding them. So we don't know if it was in response to that, or if it was in response to increased population density so it makes sense to enhance your production somewhere relatively near your village than to have to keep going further and further, or if it was a combination of both. But there's some really interesting work that's been done looking at. archaeological sites in different areas, and that, you know, this, this may well have had a positive effect, that people were able to continue harvesting clams in the presence of otters. So, so that's one thing that, that happened in the past. But today people don't have those. shorelines and certainly sea otters consuming clams in these areas where people occupy like checklist at bay, for example, it is definitely a cause of great concern. There's also concern for access to things like urchins as well because of sea otters. So there's a lot of discussion about can these ancient techniques be used today to help resolve some of these, these issues. Right. The idea being that these, that people in the past would have dealt with this as well. So can we learn from the past? Yeah. That's something to just a few pieces to it, but it's an ongoing issue and it's, and it's a really important one because it's also that, it's also that part of that bigger story of, of, as we reintroduce top predators and large mammals that have important roles structuring ecosystems. We will encounter these conflicts with humans. And so we're going to butt up against conserving and recovering species against human needs. And that's, that's a really interesting place that we're coming to, kind of a crossroads that's going to need lots of input from lots of people to come up with solutions. Absolutely. And we have to have those conversations with and be open and honest with, where we're at and, the different values that are associated with it. But that's very interesting of those clam gardens. And I'm sure there's many other, there's many other techniques that were, and, maybe aren't practiced anymore. But if we can uncover and look back at the past and see what techniques have been used that have been effective to be able to cohabitate together, that's really interesting. And you, kind of alluded to this as well, but, I mean, there, many other commercial businesses now that, have techniques like scuba diving that wasn't around when the sea otters were last here as well. And I'm just curious if there's been any issues with I mean, we've just discussed indigenous communities and access to food, but about other local businesses that maybe have sprung up because of sea otters or maybe are affected negatively by sea otters. Yeah, well the return of the sea otter is definitely of, interest and value to ecotourism. So much of the sea otter population on the BC coast is still in quite remote areas. Which makes it really fun as a biologist to go to these places. Exactly. And I mean that, no it is, it's beautiful. But as the population increases, there's more places where they're more accessible. So, for example, Clockwood Sound on the west coast of Vancouver Island is pretty accessible. And the tour business out there, the tourism, ecotourism industry and so they definitely know where otters are, and they include that on their sort of you know, menu of offerings when they go out to look at gray whales or humpbacks and eagles and sea otters and bears on the beach. So the sea otter is definitely becoming part of eco tourism, and there's also some eco tourism like that going on in Czechoslovakia. Because are great interest to tourists. On the other side. Sea otters and commercial dive fisheries don't go together well, so where sea otters have returned and come to occupy an area, there just isn't the density and the size of commercial, of things like urchins and sea cucumbers to sustain Those fisheries even crab fisheries are affected by them as well. So sea otters are in conflict with those fisheries, for sure. Yeah, that's a reality. There's also, though, a paper that's come out recently. It's in science, which looked broadly at this. Socio ecological costs and benefits of otters on the west coast of Vancouver. An example of sort of a way to, measure these things and the conclusion of that paper was actually that the net benefit to thin fisheries, so fish, fisheries and ecotourism and carbon sequestration. That means being able to suck carbon outta the air. And hold it in kelp was overall benefit of to those three things was greater than the loss to the commercial shellfish fisheries. So just from a economic standpoint, so that's a very fascinating counterpoint out there. So that doesn't address people's. of their value of their livelihoods or Indigenous community needs. But it's a really interesting take on it. Wow. That's really, really cool. So During COVID lockdowns I know that there's been lots of talk about different populations of different organisms and reacting differently to different human interactions and pressures. And I'm not even sure if otters would act differently if there's humans nearby. But have there been any noticeable effects on sea otter populations due to decreased or increased human traffic in their areas? Not that I'm aware of during COVID, but I can imagine sea otters, sea otters can habituate to boat traffic, they can get used to it to a certain extent, but they can also be disturbed by it. So, probably in places like Claquett Sound, which is near Tofino, where there would have been a lot of boat traffic, or there is typically with sport fishing and whale watching and boat sipping around they probably enjoyed a nice quiet year when all that was largely shut down. And we do know that being hit by vessels is a source of injury and mortality to sea otters. You don't know to what extent, but they're hard to see. And sometimes I'm surprised they're not. So, you know, I can imagine that during that period of time, there might have been less of that, but I really have no statistics on this at all

Dave Evans: 30:38

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31:09

yeah, and you mentioned that you not only focus on sea otters, and I could ask you a bazillion questions about cetaceans off of the coast of Vancouver Island. But I know one of the questions that keeps coming back up to me and I keep seeing mentioned is what are the issues about, underwater noise and in cetaceans that I, keep understanding is, isn't a, an issue we're understanding more and more about and how they react to noise. And yeah what's the relationship between cetaceans and underwater noise? Well, the thing with cetaceans is that they spend their lives almost entirely underwater, except when they come up to breathe, and they use sound both to communicate actively and they use sound to listen passively to identify prey and things in their environment. And species of dolphins and porpoises and killer whales, which are a big dolphin, use active echolocation to locate prey and objects in their environment. So, being able to listen, being able to hear, being able to make sound, being able to be heard, are all really important. So it's a really important modality for cetaceans. So, it's a bit like the cocktail party where you're trying very hard to concentrate on the person in front of you when there's a whole lot of people around you. You're shouting to be heard. So we imagine that these are real things for these animals, that they're having to adjust to a noisy ocean. But how much can they adjust? So there's a lot of this sort of discussion of how we can quiet in the ocean, and this is things like trying to do trials where ships are slowed down in certain areas, so coming into major shipping lanes. We have a major shipping one of the Vancouver Port of Vancouver is one of the biggest ports here, and ships are coming across the Pacific and in through the strait of Wanda. If you can that has ever been shut off headed for Vancouver or Seattle or Tacoma. There's literally 10, 000 or more. Transits of ships a year. There have been efforts to have slowdown zones where you actually slow ships down in certain areas. And the intent of doing that is by slowing them down, their engine noise gets quieter. And so you create these zones. Of quiet for certain species. So there was an effort to try that for southern resident killer whales in particular and see if they could decrease the noise levels. So that's one thing where you manage ship speed in areas to try and make things quieter. And then the other one, of course, is there's efforts to quieten the ships. So they've got a list, they've been doing things where they've been recording the noise levels of different ships as they come into the port of Vancouver. And then the ships, so they know what their noise levels are, and then there's, efforts out there to try and quieten ships. And I don't know a lot about how successful any of that's been, so I can only tell you that those are the things that are going on. I mean, the other thing about ships I can say, and about marine mammals, is there's two other things that, are of concern with regard to ships and people out on the water, and that is ship strike, and the other one is entanglement in fishing gear, which some of our species of whales, even as they're recovering well, like humpback whales are recovering really well on the coast, and gray whales, is entanglement for these species in fishing gear is a growing problem. It's a bit of a problem and ship strike, though, you know, I think a lot of people don't think about it, but we all know about high speeds on highways. So, what's the difference in the ocean when you've got shipping lanes, you've got ships coming across the ocean at really high speeds, coming into coastal waters, or even when they're far offshore, coming at very high speeds. With these big hulls that are, you know, 8 to 18 meters under the water, these big cargo ships. You've got blue whales, and fin whales, and humpback whales out there, swimming around, and they're not super maneuverable, and they spend a lot of time in the upper surface waters. These animals are getting hit by these ships. And, studies have shown that speeds over 12 knots, Result in serious injury and pretty much over 16 knots, you're looking at mortality. So that is an issue that's getting a lot of attention right now, is to try and understand where whales are congregating in relation to shipping lanes and what we can do about it. So slowing ships down it can do two things. You can deal with noise. Getting hit by a ship. So those aren't happy stories, but those are the kind of problems that we know about and that's where science comes into play. We say, well, where are those whales? When are they in those areas? What type of behaviors make them vulnerable to those human activities? And so then what can we offer as suggestions for what we can do about it? Yeah, we can have a school zone where between these hours of the day, you have to go at this speed. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's, wow, that's fascinating. And yeah, just decreasing the speed can have that much of an effect. That's absolutely incredible. And it's another story of where we don't see how are our effects are felt and especially on a large ship like that, like on these large, large vessels. How would the people even on board know that they've hit a whale or something like that? They don't. They have no idea. It's not until they get into coastal waters and the carcass is often wrapped around the bulbous bow. They don't even know because they're so big. Though we have a recent one in the news. There was a recent fin whale washed up dead in the Strait of Georgia here. And it looks like it was, it was blunt force trauma was the cause of death. And it's a fin whale that had been seen around in Strait of Juan de Fuca and Puget Sound recently. So it was hit by a ship. That's absolutely devastating. Oh, yeah, and we're seeing this because these animals are recovering. So in the past, we wouldn't even have seen a sniffing whale because we never saw them. They were far and few between and commercial whaling had, decimated the population. so on the plus side, we're seeing more of these animals. And so we're seeing these issues as well. Exactly. We're able to identify it and how we can do better. Yeah, so I guess another question was, are sea otters negatively affected by sound frequency? I know you said that they can get habituated to boat traffic, but is there a difference between that boat traffic and the big boats with the big sound? I don't think so. I've not heard of, you know, sea otters spend most of their time with their heads out of the water. They're floating on the water with their heads up. They don't use sound to communicate underwater. They don't use sound to find food. They just dive down. They use their little paws. And they actually don't have very good hearing sensitivity. So, I'm not aware of anything that would suggest that they're having an issue with shipping noise. And also, where they are, which is really close to shore, they're not typically where those big ships are. I think if anything, it's probably disturbance would be just from vessels going by and disrupting resting groups of animals is more of the concern. Right. Okay, well, that's good. Yeah. We don't have to worry about that. Yeah. Take that one off the list. Yeah. So I guess just to kind of finish up here, if a listener is just sitting at home and they're just dreaming about sea otters and they're so excited to hear about. Successful recovery of sea otters or these issues between sea otters and communities and how we can find a way to make this partnership work and have these inhabit these same waters together. How can listeners get involved with sea otter recovery? Well, I thought about that a bit, and one thing is, sea otters are doing just great on their own, so you know, unlike other species, we haven't really needed to help them along in their recovery, but I think the sea otter story is informative on a broader scale, and I hope what people can see is that the sea otter story has shown us I think it's important to recognize that the importance of recovering a top predator or large mammal is the recovery of these ecosystem interactions. I know that's a big mouthful, but these interactions between species this cascade of effect. It's like you mentioned with the wolves as well that it's not just the recovery of the species itself. But it's the recovery of a whole suite of organisms and their interactions, some of which we never even knew existed. And really, is that really valuable? Is that, is that something that we value? And so, to take that idea, and to think about that when you think about cougars, or mount caribou, or wolves, or coyotes, and when we think of these animals, you know, are they a problem? Or do we want them here? Do we value the interactions that they create as well? And so, what can I do to learn more about that and maybe think about those things and support those things where I see them happening around me? And the sea otter story can be a story, a lesson, in some of these. It's what can happen when a species is introduced at the same time. It's also a lesson in when conflicts emerge. And one thing I would say is, I think figuring out navigating forward through these issues, these conflicts of sea otters and fisheries and indigenous subsistence harvest is going to take us a lot of creative contributions. So that's one place. And the final thing I thought about, which is, climate change. So, climate change really matters, and sea otters, Feed on shellfish. They feed on shellfish with calcar shells. And you touched on that with acidification. Ocean acidification is probably gonna be a really big deal for these animals because it's gonna affect their prey. We don't know exactly what's gonna happen, but ocean acidification is gonna be a real problem for hard shell prey. So what is that gonna mean for a sea otters food base? So what that means is we all can have a part in trying to do what we can to combat climate change and support or make choices that may help us to reduce our carbon outputs. So sometimes the really big things can help little things. And so those are just some broad things that I can think of. I love that. And I love how you tied in, ocean acidification. And 100 percent going to be a direct impact on sea otters and how... You can frame your thought process about climate change and how you can frame it in having specific effects that you could, that you could see and thinking about your actions. If it's too broad of an existential threat, you can think of it as a more narrow framework of my decision is for this, purpose. That's, I love that. That's really beautiful. And my final question to you is just what led you into this career path and how did you get to where you are? And what inspired you to go along these roads? I know I'm throwing this out at you, but it's a fun one to end with. Well, I must say I'm incredibly lucky. I spent my childhood. Along the shores of the Strait of Georgia. So I grew up out here and I spent all my childhood And I had a, just a full interest in fascination about the marine environment and marine mammals were always intriguing and I think it was because they were kind of rare, so I'm not that old, but I could tell you that when I was a kid in the 70s, seeing a harbor seal was a big deal. And the reason was because the harbor seal had been pushed to very, very low levels by bounty hunting and commercial hunting. So there was probably only 10, 000 seals in BC. So when we would see one from the shore, we'd be like, Oh my goodness, this was really exciting. So I kind of got this interest in marine mammals quite early on. And so I was fortunate enough to pursue that and I did a master's degree on killer whale foraging ecology and then after many years of doing various things, this opportunity to work on remodels of fisheries and oceans came up. That's awesome. And sounds like you're living the dream. Well, you know, all dreams just sound like dreams. There's not, you know, life has... No, no, no, let's be clear. Life has its has its scratches and bumps. I just gave you a, polished surface. That's probably not true. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I like to say when people say that they envision what I typically do on a day to day basis, it's, you can paint it with whatever stroke you like, but the reality isn't always as beautiful and as rose coloured glasses as many people would like to imagine it as. Right. It's like Facebook. Everybody makes the best, you know, Facebook video. Exactly, exactly. Well, thank you so much for speaking with me on the podcast and I'm so excited to, to share this with listeners and to share the story of the sea otter recovery and, what we're doing about it. So thanks so much for your time. Okay, that was great to talk to you. SOUND OF EXPLOSION

Dave Evans: 43:42

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. And thank you so much, Linda Nickel, for speaking with us about so many topics, but really just telling us the story of the sea otter and why we should care. Now, if you want to know anything else about sea otters there'll be lots of notes in the show description. So please go down, check those out. And be sure to just keep staying curious. These amazing creatures are coming back and you should go visit them. They're really, really cool. My name is David Evans and I'm the host and producer of the, what are we doing podcast? I'm just so excited to thank All of the other support that I have from the aquatic biosphere project and the rest of the team. Big shout outs to Paula Pullman and Dr. Ross Shaw as they've been super helpful. Also, this episode was edited by Leanna Bresson from McEwen university. And thank you so much, Leanna, for all of your help throughout this entire process. Hey, if you're listening to this as a podcast episode, be sure to go check us out on YouTube. This is also a video now. Who knew it? Thanks so much, and it's been a splash.