Deep Dive: Dr. Susanne Schmeier, Transboundary Water Sharing Agreements for Peace

In today's deep dive episode we take it to the experts to find out what we should know about water, security and peace.  We talk with Dr. Susanne Schmeier from IHE DELFT about how countries negotiate water agreements over shared water access.

For more information about Dr. Susanne Schmeier's work click here to go to the IHE Delft website to learn more about their programs and research projects. And for more information on the Water, Peace, and Security Partnership that Dr. Susanne runs click here.

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Transcript

David Evans: 0:25

Welcome to another deep dive episode of the what are we doing podcast today we're talking with Dr. Susannah Schneier, an associate professor of waterline diplomacy at Ihe, Delft in the Netherlands. Now waterline diplomacy, what does that really mean? So Dr. Susannah works with many different countries around the globe, trying to predict where conflict will occur, and how we can resolve these conflicts preemptively, or how we can ease tensions with water sharing agreements, and other things like that. So she's working all over the world with many different countries that share river systems and one country expects more water than the other country is providing to them, and how we can maintain peaceful negotiations and shared agreements, rather than going to armed conflicts. Now, many of you may have heard of the word water wars, and these are true things. But Dr. Susannah is part of the team that's trying to work behind the scenes to make sure that we avoid any of these types of conflicts moving forward. So yeah, this is a big topic. But Dr. Suzanne is going to take us through it step by step. So sit back, relax, and get ready to learn a little bit more about water Law and Diplomacy around the globe. How we can fix all of our trans boundary water issues, and how we can predict where we're going to see these issues popping up in the future. Thanks, sir. Barney, G. nippy, Oh, me, too. Low in zero to marry a cheap, Chinese way. Why natural? Water are we doing? And how can we do better? Your one stop shop for everything water related from discussing water, its use and the organisms that depend on it. For all the global issues that you really never knew all had to do with water. I'm your host, David Evans from the aquatic biosphere project. And I just want to ask you something. What are we doing? How can we do better? Welcome to another deep dive episode of the water. We're doing podcast. So today we're speaking with Dr. Susannah smart. So can you start off with just introducing yourself a little bit and let our listeners know a little bit about yourself?

Unknown: 3:15

Hi, thanks for having me with you today. My name is Susanna I work for IgG Delft, which is a UNESCO affiliated Institute for water education in the Netherlands. And we're actually the largest graduate facility that doesn't graduate education. So MSc and PhD programs on water. And when I say water, I really mean anything from hydrology to water law and from more sociological perspectives to engineering. And in addition to the educational work we do, we also do research projects, we advise governments and yeah, develop innovative solutions to address the various water challenges that that the world is facing.

David Evans: 3:57

Water challenges that the world is facing, you mean, there's some water challenges out there? So I guess, leading into that, so part of your role is, as I understand it, is you lead the water peace and security partnership? So let's start off with what does water have to do with peace and security?

Unknown: 4:15

Yeah, quite a lot, actually. And much more than than we typically think when when we think about water, we think about like rivers, streams, or the water that comes from the tap. But if we go a little bit beyond that, we can we can see that it's very much related to security issues, to conflict, but also to cooperation and peace. So if we I mean, knowing that that water is extremely important for human lives, livelihoods for economic development, be it for for food security, for energy, security, and many, many other sectors. We know that the fact that water is so important, makes it a highly valued good by individual people, by communities, but also by entire countries, at the same time, as water might become more scarce due to climate change, or due to the fact that we're overusing it in many parts of the world that can lead to competition, either because indeed, water is becoming scarcer, or because people perceive it as becoming scarcer, or because the use is just increasing so more demand has to be satisfied. by the same amount of water, and that can lead to situations where there are individual people or communities or different ethnic or religious groups or different provinces in a country or even different countries see that the way they want to use water might be incompatible with how a neighboring community or a neighboring country wants to use water. And that can can lead to conflict can lead to tensions we are seeing this, for example, in Mali in the inner Niger Delta, where for some years, there have been conflicts, including violent conflict with quite a few people dying between farmers herders and fishermen that compete over the same increase and increasingly variable, amount of water from the Niger River. We're also seeing this, for example, between Ethiopia and Egypt on the Nile, where the dam building of Ethiopia has caused severe concerns in Egypt that fears poor its own water security, and is therefore opposing the dam. So we're seeing that around the world that it can lead to tensions to conflict. But at the same time, and I think that's, that's important to highlight. These, these conflicts are prominent, and that's what the media speaks about. And we've all seen in the media, these reports on water wars that might be around the corner, or water being the source of wars in the 21st century. But if we take a bit of a closer look and look at empirical evidence from around the world, we see that yes, there are saltwater conflicts, but they're by far outweighed by water cooperation. So if we look at all interactions between people, between communities, between countries, yes, there are some conflict of ones and some that might even involve violence. But the vast vast majority is actually cooperative in nature, which is simply because water crosses boundaries, water just forces us to collaborate, no one can use water alone. Nobody can develop water water infrastructure alone. If one does that it can have negative repercussions on for example, neighborly relations with with other countries. So ultimately, in the long run, water forces us to cooperate. So it is very much linked to conflict insecurity, but also to peace.

David Evans: 7:33

Yeah, it's the thing that brings us all together. It can also make you a little jealous of someone else who's next door and who's inflicting on your ability and right to access that water. So before this interview, I kept reading this word water diplomacy. Could you tell us a little bit about what water diplomacy might be and and how it's used?

Unknown: 7:55

What diplomacy is actually quite a quite a new term, but not necessarily a new phenomenon. It basically refers to the use of diplomatic so foreign policy means in order to address conflicts or potential conflicts over water mainly between different countries. And the idea behind that, and the reason why suddenly diplomats and foreign policymakers become involved in something that's otherwise perceived as very technical and something that's dealt with by engineers, by data people, by people from Ministry of Water Environment, why diplomats become involved, is because of the risk that water tensions, disagreement over water spill over into more broad relations between countries. Right, we've seen a deterioration of relations, for example, between Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, when in 2000 10s, they were in a disagreement over Rakuen dam, a large dam, in fact, the world's highest dam that Tillerson is building on the on the river that the country's share that had repercussions on trade relations, political relations, remittances, and other things. And in order to prevent such conflicts from escalating and ensure that broader bilateral relations or even regional stability are not affected, diplomats get get involved in these processes that are otherwise very technical, but that has inspired of the newness of the word water diplomacy actually happened since a long time already. I mean, we have examples from the 1950s 1960s already where diplomats negotiated over water that they shared with neighboring countries.

David Evans: 9:29

I guess there was a prominent use of this would be for freshwater resources such as rivers, but Would that also extend as well to fishing rights and rights to access water in in oceans and also groundwater? Are there groundwater diplomacy issues that extend beyond borders as well?

Unknown: 9:49

Absolutely, I mean, rivers have been quite prominent in in the news, if we think about the Nile, if we think about the so diarrhea, if we think about the rivers shared by Afghanistan and Iran, the Hammond and the hurry road, but you also equally have tensions over lakes, they're just a bit different because there's not this upstream downstream dynamic. So there's not such a great distribution of access or possibly as a power that comes with it when upstream state can do so. something that affects the downstream state and the logic kind of flows downstream. However, there have been conflicts, disagreements, tensions over over lakes as well. I'm thinking of Lake Titicaca and Latin America, Lake Victoria and East Africa has also seen disagreements including overfishing actually and overfishing by by local populations. We're also seeing that over regional seas and the oceans, although the legal and institutional framework that deals with that is a bit different from the freshwater one. And we're also seeing an increasingly acknowledging this also overground water. For a long time, the attention has only been on surface water simply because knowledge of groundwater was very limited. We know that there are more than 310 transboundary rivers that are shared between countries around the world. But only recently, we also found out that there are at least more than 300 transboundary aquifers as well, that are shared between rivers. So very slowly, this is picking up and we've seen agreements between countries being signed over shared aquifers such as over the DC aquifer between Jordan and Saudi Arabia, recently, but also the Guarani aquifer in Latin America, where countries have recently come together and signed a legally binding agreement between them how to manage this this shared resource.

David Evans: 11:38

Groundwater resource sharing is, it's hard enough to share a river where you can actually see the water being held back by a dam or being being removed from the system. Whereas groundwater is still in its infancy on on how we can actually manage that resource. What are some of the strategies that we can use to predict and preemptively deal with water based conflicts when they arise?

Unknown: 12:02

Yeah, I think it's indeed important to identify these conflicts are the risk for upcoming conflict early in the process. And research over the past decades has really helped us to identify some of the key parameters that determine whether conflict might arise what the extent of the conflict will be, and so on. And it's interesting to notice there that the link between water or water related risks such as like water scarcity, drought or a flood, on the one hand, and then a conflict or disagreement, on the other hand, is not very straightforward. In fact, the link between water and conflict is determined by tons of what we would call intervening factors. So other factors that determine whether for example, a, a sudden water scarcity event actually leads to conflict between villages, or even between countries. And these intervening factors are typically related to the way we manage water resources. So research done actually by the by Oregon State University in the US, found out and could confirm that it is not so much the rate of change that happens in for example, a river basin. So the hydrological environmental or climate change that leads to conflict, but the ability or the lack thereof, of a government and institutions from the local to the national international level, to deal with such change. But this is also good news, because it actually tells us that we can do something right, it's kind of difficult to address climate change to deal with decreasing water availability. But we can deal with how we manage water. So we can we can build institutions. And that going one step back again, actually also helps us identify where conflict is likely to happen. So it's likely to happen not necessarily only whether it's, for example, a high rate of scarcity, but more where there's insufficient government capacity to deal with things with insufficient financial capacity to, for example, offset negative impacts on farmers, for example, if there's if there's droughts, it's related to a lack of dispute resolution mechanisms, either formal or informal. So places where people that compete that fight over water can actually go to and solve the conflict peacefully. It's also related to more socio economic factors. Population growth, and increasing demand by economic sectors are by people also shifts in population dynamics. So we know that incoming migration can put strains on the water availability for recipient communities. So suddenly, there's more people who need the same water resources which can lead to tensions. We know that a high ratio of young men often unemployed young men, is something that in combination with water scarcity that tends to lead to conflict and many more of such factors. So we are actually today in in research, relatively good at identifying where conflict over water is likely to happen. We are as humankind as a whole. Not so good, though at actually then working on inventing these conflicts from happening.

David Evans: 15:19

I'd say the first step, I guess we're there. But we still need to follow through on actions and be able to figure out ways to communicate and convey these issues. I find it intriguing as many people would think of sharing water as being more of a engineering issue. Whereas as you're describing it, it seems to be less of an engineering issue and more of a socio political issue, and dealing with large populations and being able to, to convey those messages and work together. Would you agree with that?

Unknown: 15:54

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, having been involved in, in negotiations, in water diplomacy processes, we quite often face a situation where the engineers of one country would would tell everyone involved in the negotiation trying to solve the conflict. Well, the impacts of that dam, for example, are limited. And actually the dam is beneficial for the other country, because we can, for example, store water and prevent floods from happening, or we can generate more electricity that we can sell to you at a better price. Whereas the engineers from the other country would be arguing, well, but we've calculated these negative impacts will have sown so much loss in agricultural income or in fish migration will be affected like this, which is going to affect our fishery sector like that. So having these people speak to each other, and sharing data is often the first step where we think it problematic already and where it gets very political. So it's about creating a mutual understanding, what are the challenges, what are the impacts that maybe one country feels much stronger than another country was concerned much more about, then another country, bringing the the engineers which is, of course very much generalizing, it's also hydrologists, there's also a list and so on. But let's let's let's call it the right, bringing them together to share data is often difficult enough, because they might be interested in doing so from, let's say, more scientific perspective. But a lot of countries attach national security considerations to data, for example, to water data, right. So starting that, that discussion, sharing information, creating a joint understanding of the challenges of certain river basin or an aquifer might be facing is the first step, building trust in the data, right, one country might often not trust the other country when, for example, we have this in the case of Afghanistan and Iran. Iran has been claiming for many years, that the water that Afghanistan provides as the upstream country to downstream Iran is not up to what they're supposed to provide, according to a really old and not very functional treaty that they have. Afghanistan at the same time, is saying, Well, we are actually providing that water. But climate change makes it more and more difficult, because the water, the river doesn't actually hold as much water as we're supposed to provide. And by the way, we don't have measurement stations anyway, because of the destruction of the water. So we don't actually know how much is flowing across the border. And then you can imagine what is difficult enough for technical people to talk about, but then bring political tensions relations, the overall regional setting in and things get very tricky and ultimately need the involvement of, of diplomats and other people experienced in dispute resolution and negotiation in mediation.

David Evans: 18:38

When one country has a completely different new government, or has been through a war, or is still currently in a war, water issues need to be front and center. But they don't necessarily get that respect in those in those cases. So I guess you've already kind of hinted a little bit at it. But could you just kind of paint a picture of how water diplomacy works and how your team would potentially be involved?

Unknown: 19:04

Yeah, I unfortunately can't give you can't give you a lot of details. By by the nature of the process tends to happen behind closed doors. But yeah, I'll try to share a few thoughts. So basically, war to diplomacy, or water, conflict, prevention and mitigation resolution is about bringing the different parties that might be communities or countries together around the table, a first step usually being to create a joint understanding what the problem actually is. So is it that one country wants to build a dam and has very good intentions doing so because it actually needs the electricity. Like you look at the Nile Ethiopia, there's a reason why topia wants to build the grant as a open Renaissance dam, because it needs electricity to power the country's economic development to lift people out of poverty, to provide people like kids who go to school and who need to study in the evening to provide them with electricity to do so. So very good reasons to build the dam. But to reconcile this thinking or to at least create a mutual understanding between this thinking and the thinking of a downstream country. We go back to the example of the Nile in that case, Egypt, where there are huge fears of are the impacts in terms of less water being available that potentially affecting water supply to the people or affecting agricultural production and as a consequence, food security of people. So first of all, creating a joint understanding what a specific issue of contention means for the different parties, then it's a lot about trying to share data and information, make countries open up their, their data books and share information on river flow on river quality, or whatever the issue might be. But then also, and that's maybe the key step moving from what we often have, in the beginning, moving from an understanding of things being a zero sum game. So what what one party uses from the river, the water or the fish resources in the lake or whatever it might be, that not being available to the other party, and therefore it being kind of a cake that if I eat the bigger piece, you will get the smaller piece right away from that and moving towards a positive sum, game thinking moving to it's called a benefit sharing approach, where the idea is to actually not so much look into, for example, the volume of water that's being shared, you get 50%, I get 50%. But more look at what are we actually doing with our 50%. And maybe there's a way that we can increase the benefits that we get from our respective 50% or 60 and 40, or whatever the share might be, and see if there was a potential to for example, move from hydropower projects that only generate electricity for an upstream country to multipurpose projects that might also serve a flood protection purpose for the downstream country in the US and Canada. On the Columbia River is a very famous example for where that's that's actually happening, or whether the electricity that's being generated can at least be sold to a downstream country at a favorable price or whether aquaculture is possible in the reservoir that's being created. And of course, also discussing the mitigation of impacts because no water project can be built without any environmental impacts. And these environmental impacts obviously, also have socio economic consequences for people depending on the water. But looking into how these impacts can be, can be mitigated, and we are seeing examples around the world where countries have at least tried that. Some thinking about the Mekong, for example, where Laos is undergoing a huge and very ambitious dam development program on the tributaries to the Mekong, but also on the mainstream. And there was in the early 2000s, a disagreement over the first mainstream time that Laos intended to develop, it's called the cyber freedom, where no environmental impact mitigation measures were foreseen. But through negotiations between the countries, especially Vietnam, and Cambodia, being particularly concerned about the impact, and through the involvement of a river basin organization. So a platform a platform that brings all the countries together, the design of the dam was changed in the end to account for for sediment flushing needs to make sure that the sediments that the river carries that are crucial for the Mekong Delta are actually making their way downstream. But also, building in fish migration aids to ensuring that fish, and most of the Mekong fish or long distance migratory fish, that fish are able to migrate up and downstream passing the dam will see to what extent these measures are effective. But I think it's at least a really assign a symbol of how countries tried to come together, and at least mitigate the impacts that the developments in one might have on the other.

David Evans: 24:06

This is absolutely fascinating. It's funny listening to you, as you seem to just casually switch from continent to continent with all of these different examples of water diplomacy and action, or different countries working together as this is something that happens around the globe, and is very, very prevalent. It may only be certain examples, as you were saying before, that really get all of the press and all of the attention towards them. But these transboundary water issues are really pressing. And I guess would you be able to elaborate a little bit more on on some that have really worked well. And some that may be where there's still a lot of work to be done.

Unknown: 24:48

Yeah, I think there's still some regions around the world where more work needs to be done. Also, maybe because the challenges are bigger there. I mean, if you think about the Middle East and North Africa, if you also think about Central Asia, the the natural the hydrological, the climatic situation there is just different so water scarcity is higher, which obviously makes makes things a bit more difficult. Plus, that also happens to be a region that has been struggling with conflict anyways, so very few regional organizations have been built and Very few treaties have been signed that could deal with such conflict. So if we look at the Euphrates, Tigris, for example, that is a basin that shared by Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran, obviously a region that struggles with all sorts of security challenges more to just being one of those. So that is one example that we're we're still a lot of work needs to be done in terms of building trust, building, confidence, building institutions, and so on. But I think if we, if we look at the world as a whole, there are really a lot of positive examples where it was things I've worked with either conflict over water have been, have been managed, or where water even has been a source of cooperation. And I'm going to give you two examples, one from Africa and one from from Europe. If we look at the most selsun tip of Africa, so Lesotho, South Africa, Botswana and Namibia, they share the orange river. And there has been a water sharing arrangement in place between Lesotho and South Africa, which are the two upstream countries since the 1980s. Already, and then some of the listeners might remember de zero in Cape Town in 2015. There was a broader drought in the in the region that actually also affected Botswana a lot, which is the third country if you think of it in a row from upstream, right. And what's one I was actually really suffering the reservoir that supplies water to the capital gamma Rana was down to 2% of its capacity. So really a wow, situation. And obviously, what Wanda was asking for its share of the river. And that is in a very arid region, something that could have easily led to conflict and tensions. But the country has actually had an agreement in place since the year 2000. Already, that clearly regulates how they come together, how they meet regularly, how they exchange data, how they address challenges in the basin jointly. And they also have a commission that brings together countries to negotiate regularly. So that allowed for actually addressing this issue and coming to a solution that will not only now extend the water sharing infrastructure that exists to Botswana, so that water will be supplied to them as well. But that also includes Namibia and all the preparatory works in the negotiations and feasibility studies. Because as the most downstream country, of course, you want to make sure that Namibia is also informed about everything that happens upstream. So right to cause a new conflict. So I think that's an interesting example for, for addressing a potential conflict in a very cooperative manner. But then, going one step further, there's also some examples how water has actually been a bridge into peace or a source of peace. And one example I'm thinking of is the Balkans, the Saba basin, it's a sub basin of the Danube River Basin. So South Eastern Europe, we're talking and in the, during the wars and on the Balkans in the 1990s. These countries that share the Sava river basins of former Yugoslavia had been at war with each other. So when the war ended, and the first peace talks started, that were very much supported by the European Union, the question came up, what would be an issue that we can bring the countries together on that is not or not too much contested, and that they would interest to at least come together sit around the table and talk and water was identified as that issue and the stability pact, that the EU designed for the Balkans, actually very much promoted the negotiation of a treaty over water. And the setting up of a joint commission and water in the cyber basin was then the first issue that countries actually signed a treaty on beyond the peace treaty itself, and started to cooperate and with that, not only promoted peace, but also managed to address challenges in the river, like there were remnants of war in the river, that no country could have cleared themselves, but they that was affecting navigation. So together, they could address this, they could address flood risks that were a huge threat to downstream countries. But by doing these technical measures that actually build trust, and they started cooperating, again, meeting each other visiting each other in their respective countries. So that really was an entry point of bridge into cooperation more broadly. And that was within less than 10 years between the war and then cooperating at this really legally binding level.

David Evans: 29:54

Wow, that's, that's such an interesting case study on on water being a way to bring us together in a really conflicted time. That's why I have this podcast. It's, I feel very strongly about it being it being that thing that brings us all together and that we can all sit around the table and talk about so I have an additional question, Ben. It's okay if you don't feel comfortable answering this one with the rest So Ukraine conflict that is currently going on? What's happening on the water sharing side of that? Because I assume there are water basins that are shared between the two countries. And was this a reason for a conflict? Or is there any part in this that you're aware of?

Unknown: 30:37

Yeah. It's a bit difficult because we are involved in some work on that, or were until the recent escalation. So it's a bit difficult to talk about that. But yeah, I mean, water has not played a role there as in triggering the conflict. But of course, water is affected by conflict. I mean, any violent conflict, conflict affects water affects water infrastructure, water quality water supply to people. And already with the occupation of Crimea, there were some issues coming up with water supply. from one part to the other part, which was, still is theoretically one one country being affected by the divide. And there have been mutual accusations by the Russian occupied parts, saying that Ukraine didn't supply water as they should have and Ukraine, claiming that the Russian occupied parts had cut off the flow of a river that would go to the then Ukrainian part, which would be needed to actually produce the drinking water that would then be applied and supply to the other side again. Yeah, but it's a bit difficult to comment on that. But yeah, maybe just to add that the effects of armed conflict on water and water infrastructure is also something that we're increasingly seeing around the world, and also Yemen, Iraq, and so on Syria, that that's often overlooked?

David Evans: 31:59

Well, I guess, in an armed conflict to Del Sol as a tactic, so access to fresh water and being able to resupply your troops. And I definitely have heard about that. And in the news, what about looking to the future? Do you think climate change will increase conflict or cooperation in regards to oversharing? Water?

Unknown: 32:19

I think both. I think in the short and medium term, there is indeed an increased risk for conflict due to climate change. But in the long run, I think it's only cooperation that's going to help us to get out of that. And there is no other option than than cooperation. So in the short run, and medium time, of course, climate change is increasing the likelihood of extreme events, it's increasing very variability. So water might not be available at the time in the place that it used to, in the past. There might be less water at a certain time when when communities needed. And that can lead to tensions. I mean, we're seeing that already. In the Niger River Basin, an example that I that I mentioned earlier, where the time when the inner Niger Delta is flooded, is becoming shorter and shorter. And in previous years, the farmers were farming and only ones they had harvested, the herders were actually coming in with their cattle to graze but because that time when the area's fertile and crops, but also grass actually grow is getting shorter. herders are already coming in, when the harvest is not done, that leads to destruction by the cattle and that has in combination with ethnic tensions, religious tensions, read bad governance, or let's say inexistent governance, lead to conflict already now. And I think we'll be seeing more of this also, because, for example, climate change in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but also in terms of adapting to this variability requires the building of dams, we need storage capacity, we want to generate green electricity. And that leads countries to build dams, for good reasons. But these dams will necessarily have negative effects on downstream countries, which, again, can can trigger conflict and tensions if not well managed. But in the end, cooperation will be the only solution. I mean, conflict over water resources is is not something that works in the long run. Even if countries were to engage in, let's say, a violent conflict over water, that's not something that country can maintain for a long time. It's costly, it has repercussions on relations on all sorts of other sectors with neighboring countries. So ultimately, it has to be cooperation. But the way there might be a bit tricky.

David Evans: 34:38

Absolutely. For any listener who listens to this podcast, Ian is just fascinated by the work in water diplomacy in these case studies that you've mentioned from around the world. And we'd like to learn more or would like to get involved, what would you recommend to them? And where can they go to find more information and how to potentially get involved?

Unknown: 34:58

There's a lot of resources out there. I mean, the topic has been addressed, basically everywhere from the UN Security Council, to national governments to universities. I always find it interesting to just Google any random basin in the world and read a bit up on what has been happening there in terms of conflict, which is something we tend to see in the media, but also cooperation for which you have to dig a bit deeper on pages, right and following on Google, I guess. But that's always interesting. But I would also invite listeners to check out the websites of Ihe, Delft Institute for water education in Delft and the water peace and security partnership where you find more information, but also links that will take you further than

David Evans: 35:44

wonderful, wonderful. And my final question to you, how did you find yourself in this role that you're in today? What led you to following this career path and ended up where you are? Now?

Unknown: 35:57

That's a good question. I'd say it was a combination of wanting to work in international relations was international law. And that probably very idealistic and naive belief that I had when I when I graduated from high school that I wanted to, you know, bring peace to the world. And at the same time, really being in love with nature, and really having admiration for four rivers as a kid already playing, building little dams myself as a kid upstream somewhere, and probably a small ecosystem downstream. To bring that together is what brought me here.

David Evans: 36:36

Oh, that's absolutely beautiful. And I'm so glad that we have people such as yourself, who are so passionate and want to bring peace and security to the world and are working through that through water. So thank you for doing what you're doing.

Unknown: 36:51

Thanks for having me on your podcast.

David Evans: 36:58

Thank you so much for tuning into today's deep dive episode of the what are we doing Podcast. Today, we learned all about water Law and Diplomacy from Dr. Susannah Schneier. Thank you so much to Dr. Susannah, for taking the time to speak with us. I could barely keep track on a map of where we were talking about. Throughout this episode, I'm going to need a free listen with a map in front of me and just draw lines all over the place because we touched every single continent, and so many places that I'd never even thought of when I thought of water conflict and peace and security. So just fascinating. And so glad to have people that are looking into this and taking this on, as it's such a vital role as we move forward with climate change and rising conflicts and rising global populations as well. So thank you so much, Dr. Susannah, for taking the time to speak with us. And this has been an incredible critical talk. For more information on the Ihe Delft Institute for water education. You can find out more at U N dash i h e dot o RG and for the water Peace and Security Partnership website, you can find them at water peace security dot o RG definitely check them out. There's a really, really cool understand portion where you can actually take an online course where Suzanna will actually take you through water peace and security, how it works and just a much more deeper dive than this podcast episode. So highly, highly recommend it